Inland Flood Rescue Association
I wrote last week about SEBEV’s past experience working in flooded areas. This was not something SEBEV had been set up specifically to help with, it was just a natural extension of their willingness to help a community in need.
With flooding and its terrible aftermath seemingly becoming more common, it was inevitable that a SAR group would be set up to assist in this work.
The Inland Flood Rescue Association, which was established in 2008, aims to become the representative voice of swift water and flood rescue teams from across the United Kingdom.
Our objectives are:-
To maintain and enhance our relationship with government and other bodies to the benefit of member water rescue teams within the UK.
To obtain a seat on UK SAR to represent water rescue teams within the UK.
To provide support for developing water rescue teams within the voluntary sector and give advice and guidance on providing a professional accredited rescue service.
To co-ordinate and provide information on specialist approved teams available to the emergency services within the UK.
To provide advice and assistance to its members on matters of insurance, qualifications and current legislation.
To develop and improve methods of water rescue.
To test, evaluate, and endorse/ report on new equipment for IFRA Â members.
To provide technical information on all aspects of water rescue for IFRA members.
To share information, training and provide support to IFRA teams as required.
To enable IFRA teams to obtain equipment and insurance at discounted rates.
To apply for grants, support and equipment for the mutual benefit of IFRA members.
I don’t know much about the group, or any of its member teams – although over the next few days I will be introducing you to a few of them – but I do like the order of the objectives above…
How much of its aims are to do with looking after its own? Getting its voice heard? etc.. and how few are about providing a good quality inland flood rescue service to the UK? Or am I being over sensitive?
February 1, 2010
· 
Robert Bradley · 
97 Comments
Tags: Emergency Services, Flood Rescue, Flood Rescue Team, Flooding Response, Inland Flood Rescue Association, SAR Group, SAR Team, SEBEV, Swiftwater Rescue, UK SAR, Water Rescue · Posted in: Search Links, Search Thoughts
97 Responses
hi Robert heres some info on IFRA as I am the national secretary.
we formed in 08 as you have said due to ill equiped and un qualified well meaning teams turning up to help at the flooding incidents.
we currently have 11 specialist search and rescue teams covering scotland, wales and england.
our teams are recognised as part of the national flood rescue enhancement project through DEFRA.
we have also recently undertook training with RAF SAR at valley and are recognised by them as an accredited association.
we are team typed to the same profesional standards as the fire service and other responders to flood and water related incidents.
we presently have approximatly 250 trained, insured and equipped search and rescue operatives as well as 15 graded search dogs for water, usar and cadaver work.
our teams although indipendent charities/groups operate to national standards and qualifications/training. the basic core elements are Search,Casualty Care,Rope access and rescue and swiftwater and flood response.
our training for example in search covers both land and water to the same standards as the acpo guidance and also MRC courses.
we are in the process of finalising a national training program covering the above core areas.
many of our members are specialist members of mountain rescue teams or the emergency services – HART/USAR/Air Ambulance
we operate a wide variety of equipment ranging from hovercraft through to haggulund tracked vehicles and personal water craft.
our last operational use was at the flooding in cumbria, 2 teams activated, 1 used, bay sar (cumbria fire and rescue’s specialist rescue team)Global water dogs stood by to look for missing police officer.
3 teams on stand by- STAR,CDS and CAVRA with boats and specialist equipment.
if I may answer your questions robert
1.looking after our own? we are here to save lives in the same way ALSAR MRC and any other organisation is.
my personal view point is that as an association should we not be promoting best practice/standards equipment and protocols so that every one is safer in these dynamic incidents, if trying to ensure that you you are as safe as humanly possible and everyone who attends an incident does not get hurt, then yes, we do look after our own.
2. how few of our aims are not about providing a quality IFR service- I have to dissagree.
trying to raise standards, unity and cooperation is to provide a quality service- free of charge, enhancing and coordinating what is available and providing a coordinated service is no different than ALSAR,RNLI or MRC
You are more than welcome to disagree Mark, but let’s look at other organisations…
ALSAR, as I know it best;
“The principal aims of the organisation are:
To promote and co-ordinate adequate search and rescue arrangements in the lowland areas of the United Kingdom and its offshore islands.
To assist and advise statutory bodies in lowland search and rescue work.
To promote and encourage discourse and co-operation between any and all search and rescue organisations in the United Kingdom.”
None of these aims speak of “maintaining and enhancing our relationship with government and other bodies to the benefit of member water rescue teams within the UK” or “obtaining a seat on UK SAR” – whatever that actually means; one assumes it means the UK SAR Operators Group on which ALSAR actually does sit, alongside MR E&W and indeed RNLI who I believe would say represent water teams in the UK and have in fact run flood rescue teams since 2000!
As for MR and RNLI, both these organisations have a very long history of helping others in distress and have developed over time with the changing cultures and times.
I’m not saying any of these groups are ideal – I have issues with all three – but they all portray a maturity which the aims of IFRA don’t.
Don’t take this as meaning I don’t respect the work that the individual teams do; I’ve been there, done that, and really have no desire to play in flood water and sewage ever again! I respect the work and professionalism shown by every team typed by DEFRA for this work.
My concern is that the aims of the “national body” do not reflect this professionalism and dedication of its member teams.
Robert,
I think it would be nitpicking if you look at the two sets of objectives (Alsars and IFRA) and call the IFRA association as not being professional. The first two objectives that you have quoted from IFRA do say about maintaining and enhancing our relationship with Government – this is were we get money from to develop our services and to be used in cases like Cumbria, Boscastle, Tewkesbury etc.
It is only the choice of language that differentiates IFRA objectives to Alsar. Also the first two objectives are the ones that you have contention with. You are quoted as saying
“and how few are about providing a good quality inland flood rescue service to the UK? Or am I being over sensitive?”
I would point out the nine other objectives that you have listed in your first blog deal with this.
It is well known that Britain does not have a “quality” flood response and we are using other services pro tem to fill this gap. Obviously someone had to take charge and put all of the teams into some useful context. Hopefully at some point in the near future this service will rank on the same level as rescue provision now.
Where you say in your second blog, that IFRA are not protraying a level of maturity in their aims – they have been going since 2008. How long have MR and RNLI been going ?
Brian,
I have looked back over my comments and never once have I said that the IFRA is “not being professional”. In fact I emphasise the professionalism of its teams and their members. What I state is that the objectives of the group do not reflect this professionalism.
This might now be nitpicking but the two things are very, very different.
However, I am concerned by any individual or group that believes “obviously someone had to take charge and put all of the teams into some useful context” – this only reinforces my concern about the aims of the IFRA!
As for the aims themselves, I asked “how much of its aims are to do with looking after its own?” As well as the two already highlighted we have;
To provide advice and assistance to its members on matters of insurance, qualifications and current legislation.
To test, evaluate, and endorse/ report on new equipment for IFRA members.
To provide technical information on all aspects of water rescue for IFRA members.
To share information, training and provide support to IFRA teams as required.
To enable IFRA teams to obtain equipment and insurance at discounted rates.
To apply for grants, support and equipment for the mutual benefit of IFRA members.
All of the above aims are for IFRA MEMBERS (!) – not for the good of flood rescue in the UK. My maths isn’t great but isn’t that eight out of the nine aims?
Robert,
To quote your statement : “My concern is that the aims of the “national body” do not reflect this professionalism and dedication of its member teams.” – therefore IFRA is not professional in it’s aims, but it’s member teams are. These aren’t too different – just the choice of words.
The following objectives :
To provide support for developing water rescue teams within the voluntary sector and give advice and guidance on providing a professional accredited rescue service.
To co-ordinate and provide information on specialist approved teams available to the emergency services within the UK.
To develop and improve methods of water rescue.
Deal with supporting the member teams. That would make nine objectives with the first two (already highlighted) making eleven.
Admittedly I got the government funding idea wrong. If IFRA pull all teams together and support them in being used correctly in times of need – what is wrong with that ? What would be wrong in offering other services to the member teams at the same time ?
Just to quote HSR-UK are nothing to do with IFRA anymore
I just found this blog and may be too late to add anything of use.
But, I’m deeply offended that IFRA use a video from Cumbria Police – which is praising the work of the MRT & RNLI teams which helped at Cockermouth – as a way of promoting their cause.
One problem with ‘new kids on the block’ they want all the things that others have worked many decades to get … now.
They forget that those people had to do many many years of work with others to get what they wanted.
It would be nice to see the mins from the 2011 meeting to see who was elected April,If it happenend.
Aren’t they available to the public Bill, if indeed the AGM took place.
hello all, firstly I would like to answer daves point.
I dont understand what dave finds offensive by IFRA having a video of a flooding incident on its website, we have written approval from cumbria police to utilise it to highlight flood rescue. IFRA has not indicated that the video portrays any IFRA team.
dave makes a point about IFRA wanting the things that other agencies have worked for many years to achieve, we are working in the background to provide a service just like ALSAR or MR or RNLI or Cave rescue, we are not arrogant enough to think that for one moment, but some respect should be given to the association in bringing teams together and providing support and training to national standards in providing what we all want a professional volunteer sar resource to assist in time of need.
Bill Allen is correct that HSR-UK is no longer part of IFRA.
IFRA teams have to comply with the DEFRA team typing document.
Mark,
What I find offensive, is that you weren’t there at Cockermouth ? Am I correct in saying that ?
So I find the use of a video that highlights the MRT & RNLI teams that were there – a bit walter mitty’ish and, to me, gives the illusio nof pretending to be something you’re not.
Respect is earnt over many years of hard work, commitment and dedication along with personal sacifices – it simply can’t be demanded just because you’re scrunitised on a public forum.
Forums are open to public scrutiny all the time, that is their individual right.
Maybe you could post your AGM minutes on here for us all to see as Bill has requested?
Good luck in your role, and as an outsider, I can’t help but think why you didn’t join a nationally existing organisation such as ALSAR, MR, RNLI when water based teams such as yourselves are already in existance, such as WMSAR?
Dave, I’d not noticed the video but I have now, were you there Mark?
Julie-Jo
I think the emergency services , MRT and RNLI should be commended for their work in the Cockermouth incidents, a very testing time which impacted the lives of many.
Being in the emergency services, I was saddened to hear of many voluntary services trying to take the credit for the hard work of others. Many of our colleagues both statutory and voluntary worked hard and long hours to protect the communities.
Can someone point me in the direction of said video, I’m keen to see this from the viewpoint of a voluntary team who took part in the valiant rescue efforts. It’s always good to learn from each others experience.
Mike
Just another question and hopefully someone can answer it. Why are baysar and HSR-UK no longer apart of IFRA if its only been set-up in 2008?
Maybe you SAR people can answer that?
Just a thought that’s all.
Julie-Jo
Mike have alook at -
http://www.floodrescueuk.com
and its on their homepage !
dave
Thanks Dave!
I take it from the video on the site that IFRA were both a responding and coordination agency?
I have to admit, first impressions of this sway me towards agreeing with an earlier comment by Dave.
If IFRA demonstrate their ability to achieve their aims, this would be a positive step forward…. But can’t help but feel the wheel is being re-invented, why would you need land based search teams when ALSAR and MR are already capable and have a proven track record? Surely if water is the speciality for IFRA, land based searches in theory could be left to the ALSAR teams? Allowing each team to focus on their speciality?
Just a thought
Hi Mike,
I think once upon a time that would have been the way, but from my understanding (limited I know) the statatory emergency services are asking teams to become more versatile in the services the voluntary sector can provide.
I’ve looked at various websites now but the very fact of alsar being awarded a DEFRA grant only strengthens the above paragraph.
Even MR are undertaking water-borne activities.
Typical ‘Lowland’ teams are working in what was once MR ‘upland’ areas.
These are the teams where accreditation externally does exist and is robust enough for external verification and is recognised by UKSAR Operators Group.
The mind still boggles as to why teams set-up independantly when these safe-guarding systems are in-situ already.
Anyway just my thoughts
Julie-Jo
Very very interesting points raised, this could be a rather topical point. In my honest opinion and this is only my personal views, I feel that we are in danger of having more and more ‘national associations’ formed and muddying the waters.
In terms of standardisation less is often more. Creating more associations to achieve the aims of current voluntary providers is simply ludicrous and counter productive.
The more voluntary associations in place will create uncertainty with the statutory services, thus creating more work in terms of them having to make provision for more governance and regulation.
This will be at the detriment to the voluntary sector as sooner or later the stat services will simply become exacerbated with trying to monitor each association.
MR, ALSAR, RNLI, Cave Rescue etc are all well established and it seems only logical to me that they draw upon the experiences of each other.
Questions that must be asked:
how many more associations does the voluntary sector need?
where do we draw the line?
Don’t get me wrong, if there is a genuine need for something then I am 100% in favour of anyone who steps up to the line and takes responsibility. Often though there are easier ways of improving a system.
Hi Mike,
I have to agree with your comments but also add the factor of which team is which in terms of the emergency services and which do they use.
At this time of year surely any team that approches the emergency services will be utilised, but how do they know which ones are nationally governed by pre-existing national organisations and then which ones aren’t.
Surely anyone can set-up a national organisation?
But surely this causes misconceptions by the emergency services?
I’d never heard of IFRA but their website did make interesting reading, thoughts to myself one that one!
Julie-Jo
Exactly my point…
In times of emergency and severe pressures it is often very easy for voluntary organisations to offer their services. In severe pressures stat services are often vulnerable in terms of governance processes as they are trying to do the best for the people they serve.
In itself that is quite innocent as they are doing the best they can using what is on offer…. But there is a detrimental matter.
In the days following the incident and debriefs that take place. Operational issues and the question of governance will be discussed, in these discussions the emergency services will then look at the gaps in governance and start scrutinising their own actions and the actions of the voluntary agenices.
Its at this point that the orgnisations who are not approved will fall and in some cases fall very very hard. Being a volunteer is much more than just that, its undertaking a responsibility that you wouldn’t normally carry as a day to day task.
Thus the only way forward as already mentioned is for fewer bodies who encompass more areas of rescue.
Again, no offence intended, just a thought that I’d like to share!
Surely though Mike, if the governance is highlighted as an issue, it then creates a ‘we can’t use voluntary services again’ attitude and actually penalises those genuinely accredited teams?
Ok, so where does that leave us in terms of the said forum? I think we’re all in agreement but what can IFRA provide that isn’t covered by Alsar, MR, RNLI, cave rescue, etc and the statutory emergency services?
Or am I missing something somewhere?
Maybe Mark or an affiliate could assist me on this one? I see from the silence we have many unanswered questions? Could a member of alsar maybe assist us?
Julie-Jo
I’m confused, I’ve seen that MR & ALSAR teams are signing MoUs with their local Fire Authorities, for flood and water incident responses and it appears to be growing in rapid movements.
So where does that leave IFRA ? down a river without a paddle – sorry couldn’t resist that little joke
– but seriously, if the 999 ers are going to sign MoUs with the ‘approved’ SAR teams, where does it leave the ‘unapproved’ groups.
Surely, if a group is not part of the UKSAR organisation, they’re not ‘approved and recognised’ and they’d find it hard to get any form of agreement with any of the stautory 999 services – would they not ?
Dave,
How do the 999 ers (in your words) know who’s official and unofficial?
Julie-Jo
Dave,
In short yes, but in past experience no simply isn’t an answer to such teams and they will persistently try. I have had a bad experience in the past and this has unfortunately made it even more difficult for the regisetered teams to progress and in some cases restrictions have been placed on existing groups because of the fear of litigation.
Julie-Jo,
In my experience 999ers will look at the accreditation of training, and who are the teams are registered with. However in some cases when someone turns up in a credible uniform and flashy lights, and is persistent enough the 999 services may ‘market test’ often resulting in tears, and as mentioned we enter the viscious cycle of the genuine teams being penalised in the long term.
Simple answer is: leave it to the associations in place. My opinion only.
Julie-Jo – surely those Teams who are part of the UKSAR group – MR EW, MRCoS, BCRC & ALSAR – are the recognised ones are they not?? they are the only ones who are ACPO ‘approved’ Land SAR teams & the RNLI being the ‘approved’ water SAR team both inland & sea.
Smartie-Pants – I agree on the ‘walter mitty’ brigade and I’ve seen all those types in the past & now – in all forms of the voluntary ‘emergency’ sector.
I also agree in the simple answer, but I suspect that those who insist on being something they’re not will always be around – becuase there is no regulation of such types – it appears anyone can create an association, jump on the band wagon of those who have already sorted out all the niggles and claim to be what they are not !
I’m just hoping a representative from IFRA or one of their ‘current’ affiliates can shed some light on all the questions that have been asked.
At the moment, their silence speaks for itself. It casts doubts and sheds shadows instead of light.
Julie-Jo
Julie-Jo
Just to point out Bay SAR never joined IFRA.
Regards
Mike
Hi Mike,
My apologies I must have misunderstood
Julie-Jo
Hi Julie-Jo,
no problems,
Mike
hello all, sorry for not responding sooner busy working.
talking about my team we are recognised by the local police, fire,nhs and councils and voluntary agencies as a specialist resource we attend the lrf meetings and are included in the authorized approved emergency response database, nationally we are recognised by DEFRA and also the flood rescue national enhancement project as a type c search and rescue team in line with the emergency services training and response criteria.
correct me if I am wrong but MR has devised its own 3 teir system for water response, has ALSAR followed this or have they adopted the fire and rescue services 5 teir system not including fsta’s.
my team has been accepted as having the same if not better training, equipment, staffing as the paid emergency services in accordance with their criteria, not one that IFRA developed.
in relation to aproval at uksar there are agencies which have a proven longevity (25 years +) with documented responses and letters of thanks and commendations from heads of state, prime ministers and presidents for searching and saving many lives- I speak of IRC, SARAID etc.
As far as I am aware ACPO dont aprove search teams, if they do they need to include every fire and rescue service and everyone who is registered on the FRNHP at defra as teams will operate on land in flooding incidents by either evacuations or searches for people in the water.
IFRA teams have to search on land occasionally because you have to walk to the search area or part of the search area is a beach or slope at the waters edge where the misper could be, for each rescue you need to search and find the person first.
The RNLI has been responding to flooding since 2000 but there has been many indipendent lifeboat teams doing the same job of saving lives as long.
on a final personal note I would welcome a national agency who accredits land ,water,air, usar etc but this will never happen as not all agencies are willing to abide by the national standards.
mike at bay sar you know why you did not join IFRA for me to comment on here would be un professional but if you would care to comment re a certain team/ individual that is up to you. I look forwards to your comments and discussions. mark.
appologies for my comment re paid emergency services, this was inacurate and should read ” as the agencies involved in producing the national guidance for water and floodding”
Hi Mark,
I know the feeling about being busy at work!
Firstly thanks for the indepth response, on the face of it good to see so many positive things happening within your team. In terms of being recognised by statutory services, Are your services recognised under an MoU with the Police and Fire Service? and do you work with the ambulance services, MR or ALSAR Teams?
Apologies for the misinterpratation on land based searching. Your website and indeed descriptiosn of search activities don’t necessarily reflect the response you made today – calrification is always good from the horses mouth.
With regards your points about other organisations not willing to abide by national standards…. what evidence do you have to substantiate this? That is a broad sweeping and quite frankly a rather abrupt statement to make.
MR, ALSAR, RNLI, MCA etc are all experienced with national frameworks in their respective speciality. Wht my point was that another agency/association seems to be overkill.
By simply joining foces with an existing agency, I feel and suspect that the programmes you are leading would be most successful as it is not re-inventing the wheel and using a steady framework. But I recognise this isn’t always as easy it is said!
Thanks Mark for the reply – you’ve missed off some answers to questions people have asked you though !
When you mention your Team, looking at your profile on the IFRA www, do you get called out by Cheshire Constabulary, NWAS or Cheshire Fire & Rescue, isn’t there an ALSAR team in Cheshire or is it still covered by North Wales & Peak District MRTs, who I can only presume by their exsistence are the preferred Team ?
I’m a member of two national charities who are also recognised by the stautory services, go to LRFs etc, they’re just not flood capable so not on the DEFRA register, but when you talk about being DEFRA recognised – sorry for being so blunt – that doesnt mean they’re going to use you if there’s requirement – I know that well from my charities that we a resource and if required we’ll be called, if not we won’t be and one of the groups is the first thing that goes tits up and communications.
I presume the Type C SAR Team you mention is the ‘Team Type C Water Rescue Technician Team’ and the capabilities of Technical water rescue, Search operations within the water environment. In water operations, Non powered boat operations, Flood response –
As mentioned in the DEFRA Flood Rescue National Enhancement Project, Flood Rescue Concept of Operations – available here – http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/2011/10/31/frco-pb13676/
It doesnt look that hard a standard to attain and could a group of like minded individuals go to Llangollen and do a course and get the equipment to register & offer such a team ?
Now the quoted teams you mention of long standing having the letters of thanks etc – they won’t be for UK based activities – they’ll be for International Aid and I think that’s a distortion to even bring that into this discussion. If that’s what you’re aiming for as an organisation than that’s fine, but I’m not aware of any voluntary UKSAR member teams who go to international aid, thats a completely different ball game.
If ACPO didn’t approve Land SAR teams, then every Tom, Dick & Harry team would be called by the Police to search, but that’s not the case is it. ACPO certainly must approve the UKSAR member teams as they have many things in place to show that. Please correct me if I’m wrong but the Police have Primaracy for all Land Based searches, so if you dont get recognised by the Police force you’re trying to get in with they wont call you out.
Yes you do see some of the ‘unregulated’ teams doing specialist searches – but they’re paid for by private funds – an example being the search for the last moors murder victim, done by a Welsh SAR team, using private funds – which caused great concern to the local MRTs, Press & the police forces.
I’m also well aware from a Lancshire contact that the Greater Manchester MRT’s, god only knows where the Mountains are in Greater Manchester, have now got MoU’s in preparation for all water based responses by GMFRS and indeed GMFRS are throwing a shedload of training their way, so thats 3 or 4 MRTs that have taken away your services, will this spread to Lancashire, Yorkshire, Peaks, Wales etc ? Cumbria appear to use the LDSAMRA teams or the Coast Guard on some of the bigger lakes.
So surely for your own survival smartie-pants’ suggestion of joing forces is a good observation and is the better way to go ?
Re national standards, I’ve seen the IFRA Training Academy literature and wondered what national standard that is based on ?
Sorry Mark, I’m not having a go at you or your organisations, as an individual interested in supporting SAR it’s confusing to know who’s who & what’s going on and who’s ‘Official’ – thats the wrong word but correct sentiment – and who’s not, for when I decide to give money to people.
hi guys many thanks for your thoughts and opinions/ views and honesty. I am trying to answer your questions so please be patient.
we are willing to work with any organisation for the good of the people we are there to help. IFRA is there to work along side the emergency services, I have said before every county in the uk should have recognised water land search capabilities be it from alsar mr ifra who ever.
cheshire police have utilised us for a missing persons search, and we are currently awaiting a meeting with the head of the vector unit in the constabulary. we are fully recognised by the civil contingencies unit of cheshire police and also ops department of cheshire fire and rescue
just a point ACPO is the national association of chief police officers- as you say its the local force who recognises the teams with guidance from acpo, not directly acpo.
i totally agree if your not recognised by whome ever you wont get called out.
in your point about any group could go to llangollen, get equipped and register, in theory yes and i do take a little offence but if you look at the national register held by the fire and rescue service coordination centre at west yorkshire the team has to update on a monthly basis that all risk asesments, training logs, mainatainance etc is as per agreement, i suppose it is an mou for every fire and rescue service in the uk.
as a further point if it was so easy why are every fire and rescue service not on the register, simple they cant comply with the standars.
everyone who had defra funding also are contractually obliged for 5 years.
as you are probably aware we participated in a regional exercise in november, and the fire service had us doing a land search of a nature reserve, as they would in a real flooding incident where the flood had subsided.
i know of the welsh team in question and i believe they are a specialist unit of ogwen valley mrt, i could be wrong and i deffinatly was not aware of the upset with the mrts/press and police.
the IFRA sartac standards have been accepted as a national standard by defra as the casualty care course is deemed as “advanced first aid”, the water rescue courses fully comply with the defra conops document for training standards, Low angle rope rescue operations- larro is part of the technician advanced course as per the defra con ops document, the land search stuff is based on best practice in use by alsar mrt, coast guard etc, you must remember we are a water/flood organisation and our training is based on the flooding regulations/guidance documents.
as your point suggests it is harder sometimes to join up teams it would be like saying mrt and alsar join together,im sure there would be resistance from some as in anything in life.
all teams need to work together an example of this is sussex their biggest land sar team is the neighbourhood watch groups, then sussar and lsdogs.
one thing i would like to mention is that not all mr and alsar teams want to or have the inclination to do water based search, which is their choice.
midshires and herts boat rescue co exist and they both have mous.
in conclusion and this is my own personal point of view if i was trapped and needed rescuing i would not care wether it was alsar, mrt, IFRA etc who did it as long as someone did, with care professionalism and humanely, that is what all those involved in this buisness do the job for.
sorry guys just to clarify a further point ( need food and rest after long shift ) from smarty pants
i am sure that all the associations/ agencies have had groups join and on being told what is expected of them they have left, i know for a fact that IFRA and ALSAR have had such experience, obviously it would be wrong to mention the teams here. by the way merry christmass and a happy new year, mark.
Mmm interesting points to consider…
Julie-Jo
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the response!
In terms of the local arrangements, have you got an MoU with the police? I’m guessing so as you have been acitvated for a missing person search – was this land or water based?
I’m just trying to get my head around who is who in the Cheshire area, as there is an ALSAR team which is boredered by a number of MRT’s etc
Looking at the ALSAR and MRT’s they are busy enough on live call outs – apologies if I this sounds offensive, but how often are you activated for live operations?
Cheers
Mike
Sorry, I forgot to ask two other questions:
How are IFRA teams activated to incidents, is there a set criteria?
I also see from the STAR website that there are plans to be a coresponder. Is this something that IFRA hopes to achieve nationally?
Hi Mike,
As your probably aware from the news over the last few days, Cheshire SAR (alsar team) have been out looking for a missing male and also the last two days, with this being the third, for a high risk missing from home.
So 6 days out of 9 on the ground searching over the festive period is quite good in my books!
Thanks for the txt Mike, and catch you soon.
Mojo
Hi Mark,
Regarding your comment, “my team has been accepted as having the same if not better training, equipment, staffing as the paid emergency services in accordance with their criteria, not one that IFRA developed.” Does that refer to STAR as Smartie-Pants has refered to or as IFRA?
I’m quite astounded that that comment is made on such a public forum where I know emergency service personnel do monitor!
Even though teams may have a boost of confidence by emergency services when they tell teams how good they are, the equipment is better, etc etc – I was also reading that the police on searches have primacy regardless if you/star/ifra believe your better?
As another question, if IFRA was formed in 2006, when was STAR team developed? And was you the founding member of both organisations? It reads confusing at times as to which organisation you refer to as ‘the team’, ‘we’, etc.
I was quite shocked however to bump into a Police Search Officer who knew nothing about your team (STAR) today, I took it from their response your in the infancy stages of working with the police?
Well done Mojo Mc, it was the search in Congleton I met the officer today, please pass my regards onto the team. I take it you have a MoU!
Julie-Jo
hi julie jo firstly I have never said we have primacy on any incident.
secondly IFRA was formed in 2008 not 2006 and i am refering to STAR in my previous post, i was the founder of star and one of several for IFRA.
my team (STAR) does indeed have the same training and more importantly the same standard as the fire and rescue services, also it has been acknowledged that we do undertake training equal to or more frequent than the frs.
as for the search officer we work for the force critical incident department and the officers there know about our capabilities aswell as fire and rescue service on a national basis.
smartie pants the coresponder concept was one held by the team and is under review.
First post here and i’m going to say something outrageous:
Mark Jeffers, you are a liar.
You say “cheshire police have utilised us for a missing persons search”, no they didn’t. You were on a training exercise around Lymm Dam and as you were packing up you were approached by 2 Police Officers who were looking for a runaway from home. Quite different from getting a call out from a POLSA.
I happen to know there is an ALSAR Team in Cheshire and that is Cheshire Police’s only preferred civilian SAR Team. In fact, in a recent search an MRT was told their help was not required by Cheshire Police. There are 3 MRT’s whose area borders Cheshire and who claim to cover said area, but slowly and surely Cheshire SAR are proving themselves.
In fact, this year alone CSAR have done at least 13 Searches for Cheshire Police including 2 body recoveries.
What have you done Mr Jeffers?
Interesting debate. Looking at star who externally verifies there training most swift water training is provided in the ukby rescue 3 or companies like outreach in Wales. I dont see any mention of the training co listed on the ifra or star site listed in firebuy program. Also it would
bib bob, you call me a liar but then you say that cheshire police approached us after a training exercise whilst looking for a runaway this is correct the police officers then radioed in to control asked if we could be utilised and approval was given i would presume by an inspector or a polsa, we then searched with the police officers for around 30 minutes until the good news that the misper had returned home, i have never said that a polsa contacted me and asked the team to attend.
hi thomas thanks for your comment, we are not part of fire buy as of yet as we have been looking at first strenghtening the IFRA internal capability rather than providing to external agencies, this hopefully will change in the new year.
once again happy new year
just to clarify the lymm damm job
“whilst we where packing up, and many of the team members had left we where approached by two police officers who asked for our assistance with a missing persons search of the dam, the 6 team members present commenced a search alongside the police officers, as we where looking at calling back the entire team news was recieved the misper had returned home, we thanked the police officers and returned home” taken from the start team website.
So why did it take you 30 mins to consider calling the rest of the Muppets back to do such a “large” scale search!
Surely your first consideration should be your safety & that of your team! Sounds like you went in blind without a thought! Leave it to the professionals & OMG where was danger mouse?
Stop having delusions of grandeur, before either you or God forbid one of your so called team is killed or seriously injured!!!!! The best thing to do is wrap up and tell your team members to join a real team and you know it!
I also like the bit you added on your previous comment “taken from the start team website” why not looks like all your sites take from many others copy & paste is so fab! I have never read so much tripe on one (well two! Please let me know if there are any more (I love a giggle!)) website.
Just one last question. Have you been diagnosed as a dyslexic Wikipedian?
You seem to have missed my point. Regarding the external verification of swift water qualifications. I would call an external agency run by you away of giving creedence to your qualifications. But I may have missed something.
hi thomas, i see your point, i think.
a lot of fire and rescue services chose external agencies to initialy train theire teams, it is now more feasible/ cost efective to have trained instructors within the organisations, all of the instructors for IFRA have to undergo technician training and pass and hold training or teaching/ mentoring qualifications such as the certed or c/g 7307.
as you state the creedence of our training is that it is recognised as meeting the national fire and rescue/ emergency services standard for swift water rescue training.
STAR is one of only a few volunteer organisations meeting this requirement. i will post the actual number of teams momentarily.
there are 13 fire and rescue services registered, 6 voluntary agencies- star, ogwen valley mrt, rnli, rapid uk,sara and watersafe uk and sharp fire ltd who are recognised and registered for deployment to any incident throughout the united kingdom deployed by the national coordination centre at west yorkshire.
just spotted the post by johnny b good the reason we waited was because the area to be searched was specific and could be achieved safely with the resources available.
I dont mind answering genuine questions and people being honest and not using psedonyms but I find that personal attacks just shows how ignorant and unprofesional you are especially joking about a learning disability, which for all you know I may have.
the comment could be viewed as bullying or discriminatory and the comment dosent exactly show a caring or non judgemental view point which I know is not a true reflection of the sar community and I hope rob would comment on that.
once again all the very best in the new year.
Nothing derogatory intended and as I don’t know you from Adam how can this be viewed as bullying or discriminatory then it is beyond me! I can only assume that you are upset about the dyslexic Wikipedian comment which means quite simply that you copy things from other sources but don’t understand them. Wake up and smell the coffee! (I just hope you don’t find that offensive if you have a caffeine allergy)!
I am upset by that comment and would like you to elaborate, but firstly tell me your real name and where you are from, dead easy to snipe when your hiding and it shows you for the coward you are..
Ok.
Rather than getting bogged down with the last few posts, I am going to concentrate on one key point.
“I happen to know there is an ALSAR Team in Cheshire and that is Cheshire Police’s only preferred civilian SAR Team”
If this incident deemed SAR attendance, surely a POLSA of incident manager would have contacted Cheshire SAR in the first instance. Therefore I get the feeling that this wasn’t a true MFH case, more of a runaway from home and given the statements made on the STAR website this is concurred.
Maybe its the way in which the article has been portrayed, this is a danger with such forms of communication. It should be prescriptive and descriptive, that way its harder to misinterpret.
I am confused though as to why Cheshire Police or indeed any Police force would want two approved SAR teams. If MRT’s assistance is not required, this is a sure sign that CPOL are happy with their current MoU/SLA with their incumbent provider.
Looking at previous posts sounds like some good work has happened in Cheshire this week, keep it up guys!
hi smartie-pants thanks fo that, just a not other areas such as greater manchester have 2 or 3 teams whcih cover their area as i believe happens in the lake district.
the thing that has gone totally off point is we are a water based team, on occasion such as flooding or for specific water based searches we could be utilised along side other resources, for example in misper cases where ponds/lakes ditches are. thanks. mark.
Mark,
If you think a POLSA/Inspector would allow an uncertified SAR Team to search then I think you’re in a dream world, unless they thought it was a certified SAR Team, like Cheshire SAR?
By the way, who certfies you as a SAR Team and whose standards do you reach? I notice on your website that one qualification to join STAR is the ability to walk 5 miles in 2 hours, now i’ve seen that somewhere before………oh yes, the ALSAR website!
Talking of websites, yours is abysmal. The spelling, grammar, punctuation and comprehension is awful and definately not “profesional” (sic), professional is how it’s spelt!
There is more than an air of a Walter Mitty about you and STAR: who authorised blue lights to be fitted to the vehicle in the photograph? And I hope it wasn’t a public highway, as defined in law, when you had them switched on. You have been formed since 2007 and yet you’ve no incident page on your website. Have you attended any incidents as either STAR or IFRA? Or is it more a case of always the bridesmaid and never the bride?
I’m sorry i’m being like this, but I find it very offensive that you’re putting yourself out there as a SAR Team without, as far as I can see, being independantly verified. You also claim to have worked for and with Cheshire Police, when I know for a fact that they use Cheshire SAR, which is an ALSAR Team and has met stringent standards.
So what is STAR? Is it a water based team? Or is it a land based SAR Team? Who certifies you? What incidents have STAR/IFRA attended since their formations?
this conversation is now going round in circles, as said before cheshire police use cheshire sar, but they have also used us and that is a fact.
bib bob I think I know who you are and if you dont have the courage to use your proper name then I am going to gracefully remove myself from this as I think you did from IFRA and still continue to try and communicate with us even though you left then returned then left again.
good luck to all in sar have a great 2012. mark.
Mark,
Thanks for the reply to my earlier post.
I don’t think we have missed the point, as your website clearly states you ‘land search’ team.
In real terms, yes it seems Cheshire Police did use you. But this was at divisional level and personally I would have referred them to their duty polsa or even their current provider. At least as a level of courtesy, but that is just the stance I would take.
For example, if the police cross borderes they always let their relevent force know!
Mark, you do not know me one iota, I can guarantee that. We have sort of met. I saw your STAR stand at an open day. The fact you will not comment on any of the questions I have raised show you in your true light, a Walter Mitty if ever I saw one.
Lots of Walter Mitty here I would wonder the credibility of star and ifra the Only team with a little creditbility in ifra is CDs
Merica seem to be off station and not used by any local emergency services
Star/central rescue seem never to have been used by anyone
Hertford boat not sure about also crava seem to have responded in the past but not recently
Grs, k38, Watersafe seem to have credibility but all left ifra
Huk seem to be making in roads with NW frs
What I see is lack of credible qualifications within IFrA or star. Lack of need
Cheshire SAR or local MRT or frs either Cheshire merseyside or Gm all provide what star claim to provide
None of the star kit seems to be upto deff does not exceed that already available via MRT, aslar, MCA or frs
As for defra it is w self declared system so as long as you are willing to declare you can
And any team or orginastion which suggest you can go from unqualified to trainer in 7 days is deluded.
Sorry, back on the topic about IFRA.
I’ve looked at the IFRA website and I can see that there is an individual charge to be a member of IFRA of ÂŁ20 per annum, why? What is that money used for? Who holds the accounts?
I’m quite surprised at an earlier post. ” we are a water based team, on occasion such as flooding or for specific water based searches we could be utilised along side other resources, for example in misper cases where ponds/lakes ditches are.”. Isn’t Cheshire a flood plain? And I assume the ‘official’ team that cover the said area have already took this into account and continue to do so?
Anna,
I’ve never hear4d of anywhere in Cheshire flooding to such an extent that it requires the intervention of of a water based SAR Team. But that said there are a number of agencies that have the resources the county would require, Cheshire Fire Service, GM Fire, Lancs Fire, Bolton MRT, Southport Lifeboat, The RNLI, Coastguard Rescue Team at Hoylake.
And to add to something Anna has highlighted: “specific water based searches we could be utilised along side other resources, for example in misper cases where ponds/lakes ditches are”, Cheshire Police are part of the North West Underwater Search Team, so I would imagine that they have enough resources of their own to cover the areas higlighted.
Seems they (IFRA) have lost their Secretary (which was a bloke from CDS i think)
SECRETARY – VACANT AT THIS TIME
Team -
Email:
Bib bob,
If they are a charity their accounts should be registered on the charities commission website, at least the annual reports anyway for each team belonging to IFRA if not IFRA themselves. It maybe a starting point?
Mark,
Is it possible you let us know why member teams of IFRA have to pay hundreds of pounds for their in-house training?
I quote, “I’ve never been on anything that’s been paid for by the team. Everything I want to learn comes with a huge price and to date I’ve spent ÂŁ643 on training courses.”
This is one of your members!
Its a sad day when teams can’t at least assist an individual to develop without paying for courses which aren’t even externally recognised! This is fraud!!!
Maybe a phone call to the charities commission will assist me if your unable to answer directly. Your silence is duly noted!
I heard they are advertising their courses as being approved by DEFRA? Is this true? ALSAR teams have been warned off them afaik.
I would doubt they are defra approved. Most of the recommended courses appear in the firebuy program. No mention in that of ifra or the company from the us who accredits the ifra course.
It maybe worth the whole of the imitation so called SAR TEAM or just Mark reporting himself to the charities commission it might be better that way! His possible prison sentence maybe reduced if he hands himself in! It sounds like he has dug a big enough hole for himself and his trustees! I take it as a charity they do have a board of trustees who are responsible and as such could also be sentenced also!
hello all, i feel this thread has now become so malicious I must respond and advise that some of the comments are laibleous and slanderous also.
Matt if you could provide me with a team name or individual who stated they had been charged ÂŁ643 for their training and the proof of this fact, I would appreciate it.
If this is supposedly a member of STAR I can prove categorically that this is incorrect to the relevant authorities if required.
all of the courses undertaken by STAR team members fully comply with the rules and regulations of the DEFRA conops guidance, and unlike some other organisations are taught by instructors with professional training and education/ teaching qualifications, again if required we can provide proof of this.
would the other organisations be prepared to put up or shut up, name a venue and a date and we can cut all of this rubbish out.
IF our courses are not recognised why have we been included in the national mou/ contract for water rescue with all fire and rescue services in the UK,the local constabulary and fire and rescue service as well as CEVAC why have we been accepted by our peers that our training, equipment, standards are on apar with theres, simply explained- our standards, training and equipment is the same as theres.
so if this is the case are you saying theres is also not recognised?
Thomas our courses are defra compliant and have been agreed that they meet the nationally agreed externally ratified standards by organisations such as the chief fire officers association, DEFRA, RNLI and the department for transport which if memory serves correct is the agency which runs UKSAROG.
just as a point of interest are alsar teams or mountain rescue teams courses advertised in firebuy? if not does that also mean they arent acreddited?
bibb bobb- that argument that there was adequate resources was stated back in 2003 when I formed cheshire SAR and like you and others have stated they get a hell of a lot of call outs, so that proves the statement to be untrue especially in the present financial climate.
matt please feel free to contact the charities commission we have nothing to hide and everything to gain when all alegations are proved to be malicious and untrue. how many organisations can prove externally that there is this unhelpfull and small minded group of individuals who have actively gone out of their way to do harm.
not a good advert for a so called caring organisation where the vulnerable is supposed to come first.
I await your responses and also PROOF, anything less is just supposition and hearsay.
point of note louise- to be found guilty of something there has to be an investigationand a trial, so your comments about prison are a little deluded and show just how rediculous you and this thread have become
Mark,
Good to see you back and responding, I do agree that some of the contributors have made this thread into a personal attack on you, which isn’t good and I think there has been libelous comments made as well.
I get confused by your continual mentioning of DEFRA and there various guidances – I can’t find anything, obvious, on their website and I’ve spend a good deal of my retirement time searching – can you help and provide some links please ? As I just don’t know what you keep refering to and I’d like to find out more to help me understand your side. Things I’m confused by are the DEFRA CONOPS, whats CEVAC as a quick Google brings up Chlamydiosis and sheep !
You mention you’re got MoUs with F&R, Police – now we only have your word on this, thats not an attack by the way
and as I’ve mentioned before MRTs in Greater Manchester have sold their soul to GMF&RS and are getting trained to provide Water Rescue capabilities alongside GMF&RS, now I’ve only heard this third hand from a Lancashire MRT so have no proof of such – but if you have MoU’s why are GMF&RS training and adding MRTs to their water response PDA. After I first raised this I noted on their website that Bolton MRT members had been sent to Llangollen by GMF&RS and paid for by them. This I assume is for frontline emergencies and not for emergencies which are 12 hours old – please correct me if I’m wrong – which I’d assume you’d be called to.
I dont understand you mentioning FireBuy ? What is this ?
If its the company thats been formed to provide procurement to the Fire & Rescue service, then I don’t see STAR or IFRA appear in the listing of suppliers for training and that list was updated yesterday – if this is incorrect could you provide your Framework Agreement Number.
Or if I’ve totally misunderstood you could you explain what you mean.
From my MRT days in the 1990s and Im not sure if its the same now – MRTs did not provide ‘commercially’ – ie people paid to go on the course – available courses, perhaps other than Oldham MRT with their Oldham Weekend Rope work course, I can’t answer for ALSAR as they weren’t around then. They certainly used industry trainers & I know from my time we used Troll, the Ambulance service and also suitably qualified members of Teams who can offer their advice. So only Oldham would advertise a course and I suppose if FireBuy had a publication then they’d be daft not to accept external funding in the form of advertising – so perhaps MRT courses would be advertised in FireBuy.
Are you in this for the commercial reasons or for the volunteering and helping the public reason as suddenly it’s all about courses and not the causes.
In saying all this though, people have asked you questions which you’ve avoided answering & that doesn’t do much to help you and as an outsider you can see why people misunderstand your intentions.
Cheers
Dave
hi dave, can you tell me are you dave ex bolton mrt?
thanks for your initial words.
hope this clarifies some points for you defra conops is the concept of operations document.
cevac is the Cheshire emergency and voluntary aid committee and we are registered as a sar asset with them and included in there approved asset register/ mou- you can ask cheshire sar or northwest 4×4 response ( howard/ grizzley)
on checking my facts we can be called in to any fire and rescue service area when tasked by the control centre- please contact west yorkshire fire and rescue service here steve.woodfield@westyorksfire.gov.uk, steve is the project and development manager who organises the assett database if you wish or speak to ogwen mrt, or rnli and they can vouch for this.
your query regards gmc is simple looking at the number of teams in ifra Star would be nearest to them and in a major flooding we could respond if requested.
the firebuy comment was in relation to the certification of the courses, as you are aware uklsi courses arent free and IFRA’s courses arent either but we charge vastly reduced fees, where we do charge.
the team is here to help people, others have made it a your training is crap thread.
fair enough some points may have been missed but considdering im on a predominantly alsar/mrt website no one from national mrc england/wales or ALSAR have added anything to the discussion, but i could be wrong as so many hide behind pseudonyms.
thank you.
Hi Mark,
Sorry not me, my MR days were in another region with real mountains
Well, I’m even more confused by your reply as you’ve been as brief as usual in your replying and going off at a complete tangent – which has just added more confusion to the already confusing state of this thread. Please don’t assume I know anything about current SAR provisions, as it’s changed soo much since my time.
I can’t draw any conclusions to questions asked as you don’t seem to want to answer them. I’ll just have to have a view of what’s in my mind now but I suspect that isn’t correct.
But I’ll assume these answers from what you’ve said.
CEVAC – I don’t see what that has to do with the price of fish, as again all the groups are not frontline emergency services and they’d only be called in the event of a major incident. I suspect Cheshire SAR, being ALSAR, would perhaps already be out before CEVAC were mobilised.
Firebuy – I’ll assume you’re just an advertiser in their magazine or publication and not an approved supplier of training courses for them.
GMF&RS – I take it then that the Greater Manchester MRTs will be the first line provider for Water Incidents and you’ll be called in the event of a major incident being declared.
So, in conclusion, you’re en par with the Scouts, Raynet, the Samaritans, Salvation Army & Rotarians in getting to the real action and you’re in the backup plan for when the shit hits the fan.
Your replies here really do look like your massively underselling yourself and don’t want to be a front line voluntary service – like MR or ALSAR teams! So the question has to be asked what the aspirations are, remember this thread started about your objectives you don’t appear to be moving towards them.
It’s all well and good being on Assett Registers and having MoUs, but sometimes there not worth the money they’re written on – if you’re not used, you get forgotten about – it’s that simple. I personally think hiding behind big words and Government bodies and using abbreviations is not good you have to have complete transparency when dealing with – sometimes – misinformed individuals.
I don’t think you’ll get anyone from the MR EW or ALSAR top tables making any comment on this thread, as you’ll know that ‘voluntray management’ don’t like making noises unless it’s one voice, as every team has problems with what they say, and then the team members have problems with what the team amanagement say, so you get current or ex SAR people showing the interest.
Best example of how it should work is the Military – do this, do that – yes sir how high and no backchat
The same has to be said of your ‘management’ in IFRA, are you speaking for them when you mention IFRA or are you only speaking as STAR.
I find it strange that no-one else from IFRA has said anything on here – does that mean there are problems in the camp and the committee or IFRA membership aren’t happy with what your saying or are you their spokesman and this is the official IFRA line ?
Cheers
Dave
Mark
What has the International Fragrance Association (IFRA) got to do with SAR?
Dave
I think in one point you’ve hit the nail on the head. I don’t believe there is anyone else left in IFRA to comment. Only 1 other “committee” member. Most of the teams with credibility have left (k38, global, watersafe, etc) or ceased to exist t24.
DEFRA – is a self certification process so in theroy if your happy to fill the form in and suggest you meet the requirements your in
Thomas
ladies and gentlemen, thank you for highlighting some cruicial points to me, for this i am indebted.
I have had conversations with 2 agencies today in relation to accrediting/ aproving courses/ training for search and rescue.
the first was the rnli and second was mca, both have told me some very interesting facts that i would like to pass on to inform you.
as you are aware both are part of uksarog and its relevant sub groups…
uksarog DOES NOT VERIFY OR ACCREDIT ANY TRAINING.. I have been told that for example in relation to casualty care the immediate and emergency care sub committe definatly does not acredit or validate it is a self declaring matrix, ie your agency states what skills/ level you do and then agencies look at its equivalent so theres some commonality, I have hered this before some where… flood rescue national enhancement project sound familiar..
those in glass houses should not throw stones comes to mind.
thomas love your comment about if you fill the form in and suggests you meet the requirements.. proves my point totally
Dave I agree I to personally think hiding behind big words and Government bodies and using abbreviations is not good you have to have complete transparency when dealing with – sometimes – misinformed individuals. or those who utilise those memberships of groups to give an air of validity whilst utilising a smokescreen to decry other groups training and service.
Mark
What about the other qualifications your team and members have? Are they self verified or are they taught externally?
Just so I can fully understand your team and its training structure.
Tony
Mark,
Please can you re-write your last post but this time put it into plain English! It sounds as if you have learnt how to use the copy and paste facility on your pc! Wikipedia is ok but not a reliable source!
Why don’t you just join an established SAR team local to yourself and integrate the water element within that team. It does make scence rather than fighting what appears to be a loosing battle!
You are right in your comments “to be found guilty” indeed there is a requirement for an investigation and a hearing or as you put it a trial. But yet you can still be guilty of an offence that has not been investigated and heard. Infact employment law shows that there is only the need to show the “balance of probability” and not in criminal law which has to be “beyond reasonable doubt” that someone is guilty of an offence. Investigations and hearings can take many forms in many arenas and one must always take care in what you post as you maybe incriminated by the words you type as well as the spoken. You must not write, mark ingrave, publish, speake or otherwise delineate any incriminating evidence that may be used against you in a court of law or employment disaplinary hearing.
time will tell if you ever get called to an incident. as for your point who knows. I’m sure the MCA, RNLI, Rescue 3 etc. courses aren’t rubber stamped by the government, but they have credibility – IFRA does it have credibility?
Mark, you missed another crucial agency off your list who you’ve been in contact with. But I suppose you didn’t get the answer you had hoped for.
By the way, when Dave said about hiding behind government words, acronyms and as you put it ‘smoke-screens’ – He meant you! Your hiding behind jargon and never answer a question directly.
Mark,
Hi new name on the block who’s been directed here by a google search.
I’m going to ask a very direct question now of you.
Is it true you’ve stepped down as IFRA Chair and have also suggested IFRA is disbanded, because no other members were interested ?
Norman
Norman,
This just gets better and better! LOL! PMSL! As Jonny B Good said “Wake up and smell the coffee!” Run, Run as fast as you can! You can’t get me I’m the IFRA Man! LOL!
I’ve been looking at this thread quite regularly and i’m impressed with the ability of Mr Jeffers not to answer questions directed at him, you should be a politican Mark! And i’m also hoping you can answer this:
Your website: http://www.starteam1.com/index.htm has changed recently, on your TRAINING page you have the following blurb about the areas your team is trained in:
These areas are SEARCH, CASUALTY CARE, WATER RESCUE, ROPE RESCUE.
SEARCH:- our volunteers are trained to the IFRA search technician sylabus, which is the same as lowland sar teams in accordance with ACPO- association of chief police officers guidance.
CASUALTY CARE:- our volunteers are tought to look after casualties in hostile environments over extended periods of time.
our training is in accordance with the IFRA casualty care syllabus and includes oxygen administration, airways, defibrilation and cervical spine immobilisation. our resuscitation module is the intermediate life support course by the european resus council.
WATER RESCUE:- this module covers basic water awareness and also FIRST RESPONDER level training. it is the same training every fire and rescue service has done to enable safe response at water and flood incidents. our training is recognised by the association of chief fire officers and also DEFRA national flood enhancement rescue project.
ROPE RESCUE:- our volunteers are trained to utilise rope access and rescue techniques to search on slopes/ steep embankments or to rescue casualties utilising mechanical advantage systems in urban or rural environments.
I’m wondering if you answer the following:
1) You say “volunteers are trained to the IFRA search technician sylabus, which is the same as lowland SAR teams in accordance with ACPO”. Now who is the chairman of IFRA? Oh, you! So do you write the sylbus (sic)? And where did you get the standards from? I can’t find the ACPO Guidelines and seeing as you’re not a member of ALSAR, how do you know they’re the same as ALSAR’s standards?
2) Same the the Casualty Care Syllabus. Who’s written the guidelines for this and to whose protocols do you stick to and who are “The European Resus Council”? Are they above the NHS?
3) Whose guidelines/standards do you use for Rope Rescue? Who teaches the course and most of all, what qualifications do they have?
I maybe able to answer question 3 only Eddie, as you maybe waiting a while otherwise.
Mark & Brian teach rope rescue.
Brian.- Cert Ed and city and guilds 7307.
Mark – preperation for teaching, level 1 mentoring and assessing (NMC) & RTI departmental instructor.
Colin has no formal teacher training
Interesting how academic qualifications have been listed and not anything that shows competence in Rope Rescue.
I would have liked to have seen Rigging4Rescue mentioned or an IRATA course attended, not courses oh how to delivery the training.
I suspect we won’t hear from Mark again, as he’s rescinded his resignation – or so I’ve heard. But I could be wrong !!
My thoughts too Norman, teching Rope Rescue with nothing more than academic quals! Someone’s asking for trouble.
I’m just wondering what the “MAJOR DEVELOPMENTS AND FOCUS FOR STAR” are. I’m breathless with excitement.
Maybe a major development was the removal of STAR teams news page on the website?
Nice photo gone from website as well.
This link makes interesting reading as even the charity’s activities are listed as not specified!
http://m.charitycommission.gov.uk/charitySearchController?action=detail&searchStr=1139384&st=6&utn=3aeec0ea29454c5190dd201202030802&rrd=true
The mind boggles that even Starteam don’t know what they are doing!
Mark,
Did you manage to train 500 volunteers by the end of January 2012 as your website states?
http://www.cheshirefire.gov.uk/pressreleases.aspx?rid=643&dw=dt&mid=696
So Cheshire FRS have launched a 3rd boat funded by DEFRA, Merseyside have one of the best equipped fire service water rescue teams in the country. The RNLI with 15 DEFRA Flood Rescue teams, plus other MRT, SAR, ALSAR, Commercial recourses.
Is there still a requirement for our under equipped friends at star?
Sorry – according to Mark better equipped (6hp engine on a 4mtr boat isn’t going no where in floods) – Various agencies struggled with 20hp in the recent floods, the RNLI use 40hp, but Star 6hp or 2.5 if you want.
Interesting the the Star facebook pages have gone, as have half the team members on his website listing- and as Daz H asks above did Star train 500 volunteers by the end of Jan?
I note as well that Cheshire SAR are doing water training and working with Southport Lifeboat.
I notice that Someone is doing an impression of an osteretch and keeping their head in the sand!
Teaching from what I see it the posts and from different websites I wouldn’t expect them to be able to teach a bird to fly or a fish to swim.
It looks like there are a few successful dedicated Heart start teams in Cheshire the main one teaching in Warrington & Halton! Local press statements show that they are working with the Borough Council, Scouts, Community Centres to name but a few and doing really well! Looks like they have a really good setup. Loads of instructors including Doctors and ambulance staff to name but a few! I know who I would like to teach me!
The only thing I don’t get is why are they callled heart start wire?
Ive heard that quite a few of the members have left after they discovered that things were not quite as they seemed and they were quite upset with the lack of recognised qualifications. Time for Mark and his fellow ” instructors” to come out of the woodwork and explain whose courses they are teaching and if they are valid. What a terrible way to treat volunteers who, naively, thought they would be able to help their fellow man in times of need.
Seems the star team website now gone down as well. also just seen the latest DEFRA list and they are not on it. Has it gone the way of T24?
How did you see the DEFRA list ?
Something Ive been trying to find for months – could you post any links please ???
I have received the following message from Mark;
“Hello robert, please remove the comments about me and my organisation as soon as possible from the re-search website and blog.
as you are aware in law you are as the admin acountable for posts placed on the blog and are from the instance of being notified about Deflamatory postings on the blog liable for legal proceedings if they ar not removed.”
I, therefore, am forced to close comments about this topic whilst I await further clarification on exactly which posts Mark, STAR and the IFRA find deflamatory and would like removed … Sorry.